MP3 file of segment

Cascadia blog post about segment, including links to related corridor tolling articles in Crosscut, and Seattle Post-Intelligencer.

TRANSCRIPT

Cascadia Center Senior Fellow Matt Rosenberg, interviewed on Dori Monson Show, KIRO-FM 97.3, Seattle, 6/3/09. Topic: a proposed seamless regional system of tolled highway express lanes; traffic congestion; growth.

{....}

Host Dori Monson: “Matt, it’s good talking to you again.”

Matt Rosenberg: “Good to talk to you, Dori. Thanks for having me on today.”

DM: “You’re one of those crazy tax-and-spend tollers, huh?”

MR: “Hah! I like that, Dori.”

DM: “I know you said to Phil, ‘look, I’m not a crazy tax-and-spender.’”

MR: “I did.”

DM: “Okay, so tell me what your vision is, what you think would be a good workable plan.”

MR: “Sure, Dori. I see this actually as a matter of personal responsibility, because actions have consequences. We make choices about whether to drive, when to drive, where to drive, and it costs a lot, there’s no free lunch. So the vision that seems to be unfolding – and I don’t know if I’d exactly call the (SR) 520 (bridge tolling) plan a ‘Trojan Horse;’ our policymakers in the legislature have been pretty upfront with the region about the direction we’re going in - so what seems to be unfolding is first what’s called facility tolling, which, as you can imagine, that refers to the old and new 520 bridge, it refers probably to that new deep bore tunnel on SR 99 downtown that will probably be tolled, all of this not your father’s tolling, no toll booths - “

DM: “I know, overhead transponders....”

MR: “The whole drill, transponders, gantries, all that, and very importantly, as I’m sure you and many of your listeners know, that rates will depend – how heavy the traffic is at the time. So if you’re driving during rush hour, the toll on a tolled facility will be higher. If it‘s off-peak, it will be lower. Wee hours, hardly anything. What we have now is facility tolling, and you know too that there’s talk of tolling the I-90 bridge.

DM: “What’s being said about that? I want to make sure people know about that. They said, if a significant number of people change their route, alter their route when the tolls go on 520, and start using I-90, they will likely slap tolls on I-90 as well.”

MR: “It’s quite possible. And the longer-term vision is towards something that would be called corridor tolling. And I know this is not always a terribly popular idea with everybody out there. It costs a lot to live these days, gas costs a lot, we’re all suffering tax fatigue, so it’s understandable that this is controversial. But we need to look at the backdrop, Dori. This is what I would try and impress upon your listeners: We’re growing. We’re gonna keep growing. In fact, they’re expecting another 1.4 million to move to the four counties of Puget Sound by 2040, on top of our current 3.6 million. So, that’s almost a 40 percent increase in population.”

DM: “Yeah, but I would say, Matt, that anecdotally, just driving around this region, I don’t think traffic’s very bad, the last few months. And that’s because unemployment is so high. And I know that’s part of the national trend, but I also know that our unemployment rate is higher than the national average - significantly higher, right? now – and one reason for that is we’re one of the highest taxed states in the nation, and the highest taxed Western state, and so, you say actions have consequences, I think actions by politicians have consequences, and when they keep finding ways to tax people, it blows jobs out and it leads to an awful lot of people sitting on unemployment, who are not using the roads now, because of it.”

MR: “Well, we’re looking at major growth in the long term. We’re in a recession or something close to it now, there’s no dispute about that. Driving has leveled off a bit, congestion has eased a bit, but we’ve got to plan for the future. The economy’s going to come back, everyone agrees, it’s just a matter of time even if times are very difficult now, and we’ve really got to plan for that influx of new people and we’ve got to deal with existing congestion which, according to the Texas Transportation Institute, costs us $1.4 billion a year here in Puget Sound. And that’s a finding, by the way, pointed out by our State Auditor Brian Sonntag.”

DM: “But here’s what I don’t understand, Matt. We have, I think, the second or third highest gas tax in the country. We have one of the highest sales taxes in the country. We have some of the highest property taxes in the nation. As I said, according to Forbes, we’re the highest taxed Western state, fifth highest taxes in the nation. It’s not like we’re not providing Olympia with enough money, and when people come along and say, ‘yeah, let’s find additional ways to get money from people,’ it just allows them to continue this unbelievable level of inefficiency that has become a hallmark of our state government.”

MR: “Well Dori, I think that there are two issues here, and I join you, frankly, in wanting to see a more winnowed down government, in general. We’re actually on the same page right there, and that’s actually probably 12 other discussions, you know – pick a department of the state government, or the city or county government. And I think, you know, that people like Brian Sonntag, and others, with their green eyeshades, have done a very good job of identifying what programs work, and produce the intended results, and which don’t. But what we see with transportation is that we’re literally choking on our own success, and it’s not terribly pleasant, but the gas tax is just not doing it for us. It’s very revealing if you drill down, as I’ve had an opportunity, into some of the WSDOT – I’m sorry, WashDOT – reports where we see that, you know, it’s going to take $2 billion to extend SR 167 to the Port of Tacoma – which by the way, is a vital project – but the amount of gas tax money that we have set aside for that is about one-tenth of the project. Likewise, (the highway portion of) State Route 509, which, I’m sure many of your listeners know, comes out from the south end of (the highway portion of) State Route 99. It’s an important alternative to I-5 but ends rather abruptly at 188th Street - “

DM: “But you know my argument for that, Matt, and that is they’re spending hundreds, literally hundreds of millions of dollars on freeway sound barriers that do nothing. They do nothing for the region. The Secretary of Transportation has admitted on my show that she’s not a big fan of them. The head of the House Transportation Committee admits that she’s fought against them but gets railroaded by the unions and all the people that look at it as a jobs program. If they have hundreds of millions of dollars for nonsense projects - $8 million for a suicide fence on the Aurora Bridge – I mean, they can never convince me that they don’t have enough money, or at least, show me, show me and all my listeners, that you’re going to pare away the nonsense projects before you tell us that you need billions more from us.”

MR: I think that’s something they’re continuing to work on at WashDOT. In fact when Doug MacDonald was the Secretary, he started something called the Grey Notebook, which is available on their Web site, and it is strictly focused on accountability and the very type of thing you’re talking about.”

DM: “You know what, they’re not, though, Matt. They just snuck in another $100 million for freeway sound barriers. That’s because WashDOT has become a jobs program. It’s not about transportation.”

MR: “Let’s agree, for the sake of discussion, that there are things they could continue to do to increase their efficiency at WashDOT and other agencies. Even so, the scope of our needs is rather huge, Dori. We’ve got $2 billion worth of work needed on I-5 between downtown and Northgate, it’s not funded. We’ve got $2 billion worth of work needed on U.S. Route 2, known to some as the Highway of Death, in Snohomish County, a very tricky, dangerous road that needs major fixes. Basically no funding for that. We’ve got to extend 509 for about a billion, basically very little money for that. Likewise 167 to the Port of Tacoma, not to mention the Cross-Base Highway in Pierce County, and you know, a good half dozen other almost-mega-projects.”

DM: “Tell you what, Matt. I don’t want to shortchange you. Can you stay with me for one more segment?”

MR: “Yeah.”

DM: “Because I’d like you to lay out what your plan is to toll every major road, and after you lay it out, I’ll take calls from people in the next half hour, and see if people like the idea. Hold on for one second here, Matt.”

(returning from commercial break)

DM: “Talking with Matt Rosenberg, he’s a Senior Fellow at Cascadia Center, at Seattle’s Discovery Institute, and up next he’s gonna tell us – he’s laid it out in a piece in Crosscut, I’ve linked to it at my blog – that he thinks we should have tolling on every major highway and corridor in the Puget Sound area. So, we’ll have him lay out how that would happen, and then we’ll talk to you in the next half hour about whether you would like to see more toll roads in the region. Alright, lots more to come, as we get rolling on this gorgeous Wednesday afternoon with you on the Dori Monson Show.....We’ve just linked up the Crosscut piece that he wrote a week or so ago, I guess a couple of weeks ago, we’ve got that on the blog, go to Mynorthwest.com, the Dori Monson Show page, if you want to see some more detail on Matt’s plan, and we’ll get back to the conversation with Matt, next on the Dori Monson Show.”

(returning from commercial break)

DM: “Are tolls coming to many roads in the Puget Sound region? Matt Rosenberg, Discovery Institute, is with us. We have only a few more minutes here, Matt, so let’s lay out what you think needs to happen. Every major highway and transportation corridor would become a toll road?”

MR: “Probably, yes. And the backdrop here is important. Congestion is costing us over a billion a year, and congestion is expected to increase by three to five times, so Dori, when you ask your listeners, do you want tolls on all the highways or not, let’s think about how to reframe that question. Do you want to be stuck in traffic for decades to come, might be another way of putting it. But, that said, yeah, here’s what we’re talking about. I-5, for instance, would have optional tolled express lanes all the way from Tacoma to Everett. I-405 would have two optional express toll lanes in each direction, and then it connects pretty neatly to SR 167, which would have more of the same, more than under the current pilot project.”

DM: “There would be free lanes on those roadways...”

MR: “And that’s a crucial distinction. Where you can do it, on these high-volume highways, yes, give people a choice.”

DM: “But if...”

MR: “The 520 bridge, all of the lanes are going to be tolled, but it’s important to note, and there are other roads we need to discuss, it’s important to note that there are ways around the tolls, or ways to lessen the tolls. Number One , if you can manage not to travel at rush hour, or Number Two, get two or three people in your car, depending on how they craft that rule, you can avoid tolls altogether. Can your employer provide some kind of transportation, and you do some kind of van-pooling or car-pooling? Will other employers start to feel the pressure from employees and authorize more tele-commuting?”

DM: But won’t you almost certainly be...If you’re taking away multi-purpose lanes for a dedicated toll lane on I-5 between Tacoma and Everett, aren’t you guaranteeing gridlock in those multipurpose lanes?”

MR: “People are going to have a choice. I think that - ”

DM: “Some people can’t afford the choice. A lot of people don’t have the choice, Matt. This is what’s frustrating to me. If someone is making 30 grand a year, and they’re a contractor, or 40 grand a year, and they’re a contractor or a laborer, and they have to drive to their jobs, and they don’t have the option of getting a carpool buddy, and they’ve got a truck full of tools, they don’t have a choice. And you’re going to shove them into the gridlocked multipurpose lanes that are just a small number compared to what we have now. They don’t have a choice.”

MR: “Well, I think there’s a faulty assumption there, Dori. What a lot of studies have found, where the HOT lanes are in effect, is that tradesmen, lower-middle-income moms who have to be somewhere, they pay the toll, they pay the $5 or $6, because getting there, getting there sooner is worth more than being delayed.”

DM: “You just answered my next....five or six bucks?”

MR: “It can be, at peak hours. But what they’re finding on SR 167 is, the average toll is about a dollar when people use those HOT lanes. It all depends on how heavily the lane is being used at the time, that’s part of the beauty of the system.”

DM: “Okay, and real quick...What is the method for....Would everybody have a transponder, and those who don’t have a transponder, they take pictures of your license plate and mail out a toll form, or what?”

MR: “Basically, this is going to be transponder-based, and gantries, and yes, where you’ve got out-of-state drivers, probably something like that, with the snapshots of the license plates.”

DM: “Hmm. And so people would have these pre-paid accounts, they get the transponder, and...see my fear is that the state’s going to look at this and think if people get the pre-paid accounts they aren’t even going to notice how much they’re paying. Are we going to make this revenue-neutral at all? Would we take away some existing taxes as part of this?”

MR: “Not right away, but frankly, the gas tax’s days are numbered. So maybe there’s a silver lining for you there. It’s not going away anytime soon. I wouldn’t want to see it abolished now, we need the income we’re getting from it, but it’s not doing what it used to, and our needs are expanding. So over time, a lot of the top policy people are saying that we need to look beyond the gas tax and come up with a combination of ways to pay. I want to be clear here, Dori. We’re not presenting tolling as the silver bullet. It needs to be part of a larger strategy...”

DM: “Yeah.”

MR: “...that could include public-private partnerships, and it almost certainly will have to include some other forms of  taxes. Now, this might be something called a local option motor vehicle excise tax of less than one percent, um, there are a lot of different things that can be done but the fact is, there’s a huge, huge cost right now to the congestion that we endure and with big population growth continuing to stream into Puget Sound, we literally can’t sit on our hands and wait until we’re just wallowing in traffic congestion.”

DM: “No, but Olympia could allocate the money...We’ve got 30 seconds here. Forbes said we are the highest taxed Western state. When is enough enough?”

MR: “I don’t know. That’s maybe not the question I’m asking. We’re looking at transportation.”

DM: “And I’m looking at the bigger picture. Olympia has a pot of money. We have a line item in our family budget for taxes, and I just don’t think they’re allocating it sensibly, so I’d like to restrict the flow, but I think your plan is a provocative one, and I’m going to see what our listeners think about it. Thanks for your time this afternoon, Matt.”

MR: “Thanks, Dori.”

DM: “Alright. Matt Rosenberg over at the Discovery Institute. Okay, you’ve heard his plan. And, uh, the legislature is taking this plan very very seriously. The time for dialing is right now. So, I want to hear your take. Would you support tolls on every major highway in the region? Triple 8, 97 3 KIRO, time to dial in is now...your phone calls up next.”

(following commercial break)

DM: “Matt Rosenberg has graciously agreed to stay on and take your phone calls. I know why you asked to do that, Matt. You were just afraid people were going to beat up on you for half an hour in a vacuum, right?”

MR: “Naw...i simply want to participate in the conversation, as it continues.”

DM: “There you go, I’m all for that. Okay, let’s get to the phone calls. Gary’s in Bothell. Gary, you’re on NewsTalk 97 3 KIRO FM. Hello.”

Gary: “Hey, Dori. My gut feel is that this is the plan of some arrogant, crazy English lord. ‘You can only use the King’s roads, and when you do, it costs.’ But my concern here is that, aren’t you afraid that it’s going to slap a wall between the Eastside and Seattle? Aren’t people just going to say, you know what, when I take a look at it...’ ......I guess the state feels people are just going to put a transponder in their car, pay it once a month, and forget about it.”

DM: “Let me give Matt a chance to respond. First of all, Matt, are you crazy, are you English, are you a lord?”

MR: “I’m actually from Chicago and now I live in West Seattle, and I’m a homeowner and a taxpayer and the proud parent of two Washington natives.”

DM: “But you haven’t denied the crazy part yet.”

MR: “Well, some people have said that, every now and then.”

DM: “Well, what about Gary’s point. We’re just going to be building this wall between Seattle and Snohomish County, Seattle and Pierce County, Seattle and the Eastside.”

MR: “Well, with all due respect to Gary, I don’t think that’s how things are going to play out. Yeah, there may be some added costs, again, it may be a net gain, financially, for people, if you consider the time spent stuck in traffic. So I think, mobility in the region, that’s huge.”

DM: “So what you’re saying is that a wall’s okay because we’ve changed people’s behavior.”

MR: “Well, there isn’t going to be a wall, there’s going to be some additional tolling going on. I think that people are still going to live in Lake Stevens and work in Bellevue, and you know, they’re gonna live in Maple Valley and they’re gonna work in Kirkland, and so on down the line – live in Burien and work in Shoreline. They’re gonna travel on those tolled corridors if the legislature actually approves this.”

DM: “They’re taking thousands of dollars a year in a pay cut just so they can transfer money to the state.”

MR: “Well you know, Dori, when you’re doin’ the math, I think you have to look at both sides of the equation. You know, in the old days, back in the Soviet Union, before the latest revolution, the good one, people stood in long, long lines to get free or cheap food, but they spent an awful lot of time waiting, and time was money. And they were told they were getting a great bargain. Well, free highways are like the Soviet bread lines. Free roads are not such a great bargain all the time.”

DM: “Well, okay. I think that’s fine if you’re making six figures. I think if you’re making 30 thousand a year and all of a sudden the state says we’ve got to hit you up for two grand a year in tolls, it doesn’t matter how much you’re saving, it’s killing your family.”

MR: “Well, you know, your ability to make money, say you’re a plumber, right? Or you’re a glazier, right? You’re boppin’ all over the region, you’ve got lots of appointments, lots of work – that depends on the economy – but you’ve got to get where you’re going. The more that you can ensure reliable and predictable travel times, the better you’re going to do, assuming that your work is good. Your customer also wants you to get there on time.”

DM: “If you own your business. If you’re a working-wage employee, it’s just a huge pay cut. Sam’s in Greenwood. Sam, you’re on with Matt Rosenberg.”

Sam: “My issue is, that this is just another hidden tax. I mean, Dori, would you relate to this guy that the heaviest employer in this state is the state? So logic says that the majority of people that are out on the road during commute times are state, union employees, ones with COLAs. So basically, what he’s doing is driving up the cost of government.”

DM: “Yeah, you know, that’s a great point, Matt. If the state of Washington’s so concerned about this, why don’t they make all the state employees who are in non-essential, don’t-have-to-deal-with-the-public jobs, which are the majority of state employees, why don’t they put all of them on the graveyard shift? And show to us they’re really serious about reducing congestion through altering behavior with their actions?”

MR: “Actually, I understand that the state has started some pilot programs with four-day work weeks, but there is one thing - “

DM: "That’s not what I’m talking about. They could almost - ”

Gary: “He’s changing the subject.”

DM: “Right now, they could....anytime there’s a federal holiday that most of us work but the state and federal employees get off, the roads are clear. It’s 60 miles an hour, the commuting. Why doesn't the state tell all those people, if they’re so hell-bent on altering our behavior, why don’t they have their workers work graveyard shift?”

MR: “Well, I like to look at tele-commuting, myself. I think, job by job, it depends what hours people can work, or not work. I wouldn’t presume to make that suggestion. Bit I think employers across the board, public and private sector, need to take a much closer look at letting more employees tele-commute more often. And we all need to look at ridesharing, when we can. There are gonna be times when we’ve got to drive solo in peak hours.”

DM: “I hate it when people say ‘we need to look at this.’ When a politician does, or when you say (that). You don’t know anything about my life. You don’t know about the kids’ basketball practice I have to get to right after work and the appointments I have to get to in the morning. And I just resent it when anyone tells me what I need to do.”

MR: “Well, no, yeah, I do know something about your life Dori, believe it ot not, ‘cause it’s a lot like mine. We have places we have to be at certain times, so there are some trips that are not discretionary. I think we’re in agreement there. The point is, all trips create a social cost.”

DM: “Sam, I know you wanted to jump in, and say, one last comment from you, Sam.”

Sam; “Okay, and then I’ll go. He keeps changing the subject. He’s not addressing the fact that the majority of people out there aren’t glaziers, aren’t plumbers, they’re secretaries or DOT workers, they’re school teachers, and the state, like you say, Dori, is not willing to alter its behavior at all. All it wants to do is keep raising the cost. That’s what he’s doing. He’s raising the cost of government.”

DM: Alright, Matt, final comment from you. Thanks for the call, Sam.”

MR: “I’d actually like to look at the employment figures. I’m not sure, I think overall, most of the employment that occurs around here, the majority of it, is not in the public sector. That’s certainly a component, but the private sector comprises the larger part of the work force. And again, employers share responsibility, along with people. You know, it imposes a cost every time you drive. We may not want to think of the effect on the environment, or on congestion, or on others, when we drive a car. But we’re connected to a whole, and so some of those costs have to go to a person that drives. And it’s tough to swallow, I know.”

DM: “Let me go to Rob, in Gig Harbor. Rob, you’re on with Matt Rosenberg. Hello.”

Rob: “I’m glad I got the opportunity here. I guess it boils down to this. I live it right now. I cross the Tacoma Narrows Bridge on a daily basis, and to be honest, Matt, I was vehemently against the bridge, the new bridge, being built...”

MR: “And the tolls?”

Rob: “Excuse me?”

MR: “..and against the tolls, at first?”

Rob: “I suppose so, the two go hand in hand. And since it’s been erected, and it’s up, ansd we’re using it, it’s served its purpose. I’m somewhat satisfied with it. But I’m not satisfied with the accountability factor, and this is what Dori is talking about, I think. I go to the meetings where they talk about raising the tolls and they can’t even account for the interest that they’re earning on the tolls, as a way of keeping the tolls at a low cost. They scratch their heads, agree not to raise the cost, and go back and research it. And that’s frustrating. It’s that accountability thing, with those concrete walls. Show me something. Show me something first that they’re being responsible, then I would probably be more apt to go for it. And I sit on an advisory committee right now with WashDOT, one month, two hours of my life I’ll never get back, every month, whittling 12 options down to four, for another bridge that they’re building in our area. At this point, they’re picking the most expensive options, $200 million versus $60 (million). And I don’t get that. I mean, there’s four alternatives: 160, one that’s 200 million, why would they pick that?”

DM: “It’s a great conv...I only have 30 seconds before I take a break here. So, Matt, what has led you to believe we should trust them with more of our money?”

MR: “I don’t know if I’d go at it that way. Although, actually - ”

DM: “That’s a pretty legitimate question, that’s the heart of my objection to all this.”

MR: “I don’t know, Dori, I think you’d really have to do the homework on that instead of spouting an easy populist line. I’d check and see whether WSDOT, WashDOT - “

DM: “I’ve done more homework on WashDOT that anyone else in broadcast.”

MR: “..on whether they’re starting to bring projects in on time, and on budget – and they are – and I’d look at the needs. It goes beyond, ‘why should we trust them?’ It goes to what kind of region we want to have in the future. Do we want to be economically viable? I think we’re asking different questions. And you basically have no faith in government, and I have some faith that our leaders can find a way to do this, with the help of a very engaged populace. I think that’s our difference.”

Rob: “I’m not convinced of that, myself.”

DM: “Rob, I’m really glad you called. I’ve got to run to a break here, but I’ll get right back to your calls for Matt Rosenberg here. I’ve got a line that just opened up. Triple 8, 97 3 KIRO. We’ll get right back to your phone calls here on the Dori Monson Show.”

(following commercial break)

DM: “12:54 News Talk 97 3 KIRO FM. Matt Rosenberg from the Discovery Institute is on with us. And, hey, Matt, how likely is this to happen? Is the legislature really seriously considering a proposal like yours?”

MR: “Well, I’m glad you asked that Dori. I did want to make clear, there are some studies that were authorized, but nothing like full-on corridor tolling in all the major highway corridors has been approved yet, or is going to be real, real soon. But in the last transportation budget, that they passed just this past spring, they did authorize some important studies.”

DM: “Yeah, I know.”

MR: “Several corridors. So they’re looking at this. And part of the thing, Dori, is, um, you know, they want to build out a few key corridors – 509 and 167 – and they want to do something about 405. And if we can, you know, suspend disbelief and distrust just a little bit...”

DM: (chuckles) “I can’t. I am not capable of that suspension.”

MR; “I know that’s hard for you, Dori. Work with me. It’s going to be a very public process, and I want to stress that. I get the feeling, listening to some of the listeners - and I appreciate their concerns very much, I’m sure the state and others do, as well - that people think there’s some sort of done deal that’s going to be rammed down people’s throats, and nothing could be further from the truth. We’re at the beginning of a long, hard road in terms of trying to figure how we maintain economic growth and mobility, how we keep our roads running free, and get more transit into the mix while we grow. So, people are a huge part of this, along with their elected leaders.”

DM: “Okay. Let me get to more calls for Matt, here’s Brad in Seattle. Brad, you’re on  NewsTalk 97 3 KIRO FM. Hello.”

Brad; Hi Dori,and Matt.”

MR: “Hi there, Brad.”

Brad: “Hey, I agree with Matt in some aspects - “

DM: “What are you doin’ listenin’ to my show, then, Brad?”

Brad: “I also agree with you, Dori.”

DM: “That’s okay, then.”

Brad: “Several points to make. Tolls on the (Tacoma) Narrows Bridge and other large infrastructure projects like 520 and I-90 if necessary, or the Hood Canal bridge, um, I believe, are appropriate. But, when it comes to WashDOT, I am a civil engineer, owner of a small private engineering firm, and I had to run up against WashDOT several times in my career. And it never has been a pleasant experience. It’s always been extremely cumbersome to find the right person to talk to. And everyone has an individual path, in which they handle, maybe, 20 miles of guard rail along I-5.”

DM; “Yeah, but that’s true of any bureaucracy. I don’t know that you think WashDOT is particularly bad in that regard?”

Brad: “Yes, I do. And usually, if I determine that WashDOT’s going to be required on one of my projects, it’s the first thing I start and obviously it’s the last thing that gets finished. And I’ve had to start separate files for WashDOT just to track their performance.”

DM: Well Matt, isn’t this consistent with me asking the question, why we think we should trust them with more of our money?”

Brad: “We should not. I contacted, or tried to contact Christine Gregoire’s office, when she was looking for proposals on the budget. And I suggested that what they look at is outsourcing their design department and the project management portions of - “

DM: “Yeah, but you’re a civil engineer, you’ve got a vested interest in suggesting that.”

Brad: “We all have a vested interest.”

DM: “Yeah, that’s true.”

Brad: “What happens is, when I go to these agencies – about 65 percent of my work  is dealing with government agencies – the easy part’s the engineering.”

DM: “I gotta let you go, Brad, and thanks for the call. So Matt, we’ve only scratched the surface, obviously. My line’s been jammed the whole hour. People would love to keep talking about this. So let’s do this again sometime. So what’s the next step in all this, as the plan tries to unfold?”

MR: “Well, we’re gonna see some studies unfolding on a very fast track, looking at how much money could be raised by tolling 167 and 509, to complete those build-outs. We’re gonna see a study on I-405 on how it would look, and function, and raise money - “

DM: “Even if there’s no other place in the country that has put tolls on existing roadways, we’re gonna do that on a widespread basis?”

MR: “We’re gonna look at adding, I think, two HOT lanes in each direction on I-405, um, they’re going to study Portland and the Clark County area because there are gonna be tolls on the (new) bridge across The Columbia there, but a question is whether to also toll the parallel corridor of interstate 205. Then, long-term, the legislature, uh, Joint Transportation Committee, is now, or will soon, be beginning a special study on how we reinvent surface transportation funding. We’ll be looking at things like the vehicle mileage tax, but that’s a long way down the line. In the mid-term, we look at things like whether to go for real, corridor tolling instead of facility tolling. The thing I’d leave you with, and your listeners - “

DM: “Real quick, real quick.”

MR: “Okay, apart from the question about trust, which I’m never going to be able to fully answer for you, it’s this: are bits and pieces better, or is the seamless approach better? Remember the old HOV lanes? They’d end, and you’d be frustrated? Well, if we’re gonna have tolled express lanes, it should be in a continuous, seamless system. We’ll get more bang for our buck, and better service.”

DM: “Alright. I’m out of...hey Matt, let’s do this again soon, okay?’

MR: “Absolutely, Dori. Thanks very much for having me, and I really appreciate it.”

DM: “Matt Rosenberg, from the Discovery Institute.”